Episode 002 - When Youth Pastors Lie: Isabel’s Story
In this episode:
This is episode one in the series Linsey’s family members' stories of spiritual abuse in the church where they were active members for fourteen years.
In this episode, Isabel bravely shares her experience of being gossiped about by her youth pastor as an adolescent. Together, Linsey and Isabel discuss nepotism, pastoral lying, misuse of spiritual authority, and holding others accountable.
Listen below!
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Welcome to Called to Courage, the podcast for those ready to be emboldened, empowered, and reminded that truth will always rise, where Christians speak up to share their stories of hurt, betrayal, or injustice. Together we explore the highs, the lows, and the moments where faith and courage collide.
Linsey Hammon: So getting us started, you guys heard me in the first episode where I was talking about our family's story and how that would be the first story that we would highlight on the podcast. And so today we have my youngest daughter, Isabel, with us today. There she is. And like right now we're starting, we're recording Isabel's episode first. We'll see if it actually releases first, but it kind of happens first chronologically speaking and so that's why we're starting with your story. But before we even get to your story, and sort of the circumstances that took place at the church that we were at, I want to go backwards in time and I'd like for you to tell us a little bit about just about you, about your kind of like exposures to church, what those sort of early years were like for you. You know what you really remember about that, how we started at this church.
Isabel: Well, because of you guys, I grew up in a Christian household. So obviously went to church young, like since birth young. And then when I was about six years old, I gave my life to Christ. And then at that point we had moved churches and I got baptized at the church that we will be talking about. I don't know really what else, I mean, that was kind of, it was young. I was young. I was like seven when I got baptized.
Linsey: What happens from there? Like talk about your level of involvement.
Isabel: I was very involved. I think I served in like kind of any area that you could serve in at my age growing up, starting leading with you back in like children's ministry with like two year olds.
Linsey: Yes, that made me crazy because I did not want to volunteer. But I did and you had to because they wouldn't have allowed me to do it myself.
Isabel: Right, because I think you had to be 12 years old and I was in 10. And yeah..
Linsey: Without a parent.
Isabel: So that's where like I first started leading and then I kind of went up to like five and six year olds and started going into elementary. And then I think probably around whenever I hit like seventh or eighth grade is whenever I started leading with like the fifth and sixth graders or I was still with like elementary school kids.
Linsey: It's kind of hard to remember.
Isabel: Yeah, I kind of led in all of these areas at like the same time because then once I hit high school, I started leading with youth like middle school youth. The same time as doing like I was doing kids' worship and then I was singing in like the choir that they would have every once in a while. Gosh, I did a lot in the fifth and sixth grade room. Like announcements, leading small groups, working the sound board.
Linsey: And this was on the weekends, right?
Isabel: Yeah, it was just really involved. And then Wednesday nights I would be a greeter outside during the youth thing on Wednesdays. So, I think that was like pretty much everywhere that I led. I mean at one point I was making cotton candy I think during mother's day on the weekend. Like I kind of did anything and everything.
Linsey: And did you feel like that was your choice to do that?
Isabel: Mmhmm.
Linsey: Yeah?
Isabel: Yeah, I felt like a lot of it was my choice but at the same time I kind of wanted to lead in as many areas as I could. That way I could kind of build up a reputation for myself in a way.
Linsey: Okay. Talk a little bit about that.
Isabel: Well, because I was friends with a lot of the pastors' kids and staff kids and things like that and then obviously Grace who is my sister being as involved as she was. I wanted to be involved enough to where I could kind of build the rapport for myself kind of being like I'm a reliable person. You can trust me with all these things and you can ask me to do these things and I will willingly do these things. And so I kind of stretched myself out as far as I could go before I ever had like an actual job. Like anything that they would ask me to serve for I'd be like yep, totally go ahead. Like I'll do it.
Linsey: My memory around this time too is we were homeschooling at this point. So you had a lot of flexibility.
Isabel: I had so much free time.
Linsey: Yeah.
Isabel: And that was before I ever had a job.
Linsey: Right. And so even during the week, during the day, you could be up there.
Isabel: Yeah. You know, getting things together for a weekend service or for a Wednesday night service, you had a lot of availability. And in high school I was leading a small group during the week days and I was attending like two other ones during the week days. You know, constantly doing stuff like that.
Linsey: Okay. And so sounds like you're pretty involved.
Isabel: I was.
Linsey: Right. Okay. So at this point, you're in high school and you're in a small group, leading small groups. Who? Who was leading the small group that you were in?
Isabel: High schoolers.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: Not on weekends, but on weekdays we'd go to a house.
Linsey: What was the difference?
Isabel: Well, one was a service during weekend service at church, but specifically for high school in middle schoolers. And then the other one was a small group at someone's house led by someone willing to open up their house for the small group.
Linsey: Okay, and so the ones during the week, those were high school leaders.
Isabel: Mm-hmm.
Linsey: But on the weekend it was happening at the church during a regular service and those were adult leaders.
Isabel: Yeah. Majority of them.
Linsey: What happens next?
Isabel: Ummm.
Linsey: Where are you? How old are you at this point? That was a really big sigh.
Isabel: I'm trying to think. I guess I would have been 15, almost 16, because I was a sophomore whenever everything started happening. And like I said, I was trying to lead in kind of any area possible. I wanted to, we would do retreats. There would be three every year. One during the spring, one during the summer, and then one during the fall. They would split it up middle school and high school. And it was a known thing that if you wanted to lead a small group for the middle school retreat--this was specifically the spring one, so I was fifteen, I was a sophomore--you needed to be a junior in high school or like older.
Linsey: Like an upperclassman?
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: Okay. Or out of high school?
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: In order to lead younger, middle school.
Isabel: Seventh and eighth grade. But I really wanted to lead because I just, I felt called to lead younger girls just based off of my testimony that I have. And so I knew that there were some other girls my age that were sophomores in high school that were going to end up leading a small group at this retreat, even though it was openly told about told to us that we weren't allowed to. And so I went to the youth pastor at the time. And I asked him if I could lead even though I was a sophomore. We would be paired with an adult too. It wouldn't just be me leading the group. It was going to be me an adult. I asked if I could lead a group. And he said that only juniors or like upperclassmen and older are able to lead at these groups, not sophomores or younger. And then we get to the retreat. And about six to eight girls that were sophomores in high school were posting pictures about how they led at this retreat and how they had so much fun.
Linsey: And for context, all of them were pastors' kids and staff kids.
Isabel: And then some of their friends as well.
Linsey: So, so right off the bat that feels a bit like a double standard.
Isabel: Oh, yeah.
Linsey: Because the rule you were told was only upperclassmen, juniors and seniors who are still in high school can lead at middle school. And then you see some sophomores on social media after the event, posting some pictures where they had led, and, but they were all staff kids or pastors' kids.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: So the standard was different-for them-for them because of their proximity to leadership at the church.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: Okay. So, I'm having a thought that's occurring to me in real time. I have not thought about it before. Even though your story is one that I know about obviously because you are my kid.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: And I've lived this with you. But I feel like what that is showing to me is kind of right then at that point in when those kids are in high school is you already are dealing with some nepotism. So nepotism of course is the way that we favor people in our family or those close to us. And that favoritism then gets them jobs or fame or a reputation or platform or whatever. We have a tendency then to want to elevate those people who are close to us in our family. And that is nepotism. And nepotism is a real problem in the church. That's where we see situations of family empires being built within the church because they hire people who are within their families, who are close to them. And I had not until right now I've thought about that in terms of when they're hiring staff seeing that as nepotism. But I had not until right now thought about you and this situation, where these other sophomore kids were granted the ability to lead at a retreat because of their proximity to leadership because of their role within their family their place in a certain family then it gave them; there was there was favoritism that was shown to them because of the family that they were in. And that's nepotism right and that's not how that's supposed to go. It would be like when I was working in the hospital setting we don't just take the best care of the kids who are in our family. We take care of all of the kids. Right?
Isabel: Right. You're not going to favor one kid over another one who is also sick just because they're simply related to you or you know.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: Okay so here you are you're in a situation where you're seeing these pictures that are being posted and then what?
Isabel: I didn't really do much after that. I mean I told you about it. And then that's whenever you confronted the youth pastor J. I feel like the word confronted here is not fair.
Isabel: What?
Linsey: Because I didn't I did not confront him. And questioned? Well I didn't question him yet. I don't think I questioned him until the following year because, it was, it was, because it was the same year that when, it was your senior year when you had just applied to school it was because it was months apart.
Isabel: But the next year would have been my junior year.
Linsey: I know that's why I'm telling you it wasn't this year.
Isabel: Oh you're saying that you had talked to him.
Linsey: I didn't talk to him until your senior year.
Isabel: Oh so two years later.
Linsey: Two years later. Because I feel like you saw this happen with these with the sophomores and then you just were like that's not right. I feel like our conversation at the time, Isabel, was actually around the sophomores who were allowed to lead. And I think I even said to you at the time like listen it kind of makes sense because their parents are pastors. Well not their parents. Their fathers are pastors. Or they have a parent on staff. And so maybe a pastoral leadership feels like they can trust them a little bit more or put a little bit more responsibility on them because they're you know a little in a little tighter of a circle maybe within the leadership of the staff. I don't really know if I'm wording that properly, but I feel like at the time my default mode that I'm learning about myself is that I have a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt. So maybe and I think too much. I have a tendency to do it too much. So what I think I remember happening at that time is that I said listen you know those kids like they they the youth pastor can trust them maybe a little bit differently because their dad is a campus executive pastor or a teaching pastor at the church. And so while I think it's bogus to have a rule in place that then we turn around and don't hold to that standard. We adjust the standard if you will. I could kind of again give the benefit of the doubt and see like okay well maybe. And I think that that was our conversation that year, but one of the things that you have always had a really good handle on is your ability to look at a situation. And you have a tendency to be like I'm going to just ignore the gray for a minute and I'm gonna look at the black and white here. Which really impresses me about you because I think the gray can be a distraction at times. And you're able to go no this is not hard to see at all. So you move forward after that time as a sophomore and what does your junior year look like? Is anything?
Isabel: I guess this is technically like right before my junior year I did a student internship over the summer at the church.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: So that was about three months or so of just leading in the church and doing a bunch of things. But you had to be accepted to do that. So I did that during that summer.
Linsey: When you say you had to be accepted to do that what did that process look like?
Isabel: I had to have an interview for it. I had to sign some papers and I got an email saying that I got accepted to being in this internship.
Linsey: Okay. Did you have to put your name forward? Like kind of apply for it.
Isabel: I had to apply yeah.
Linsey: Okay. So application and then the interview.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: Some paperwork.
Isabel: I guess yeah.
Linsey: Okay. And then, tada.
Isabel: Exactly.
Linsey: And how many students about?
Isabel: Probably about 40 of us.
Linsey: Okay. And at the time the youth is pretty large.
Isabel: Yeah. Right.
Linsey: I mean consistently how many people were you having at youth on a Wednesday night, about? 500?
Isabel: Probably.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: But everyone that got accepted into this were people that were known around the youth environment.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: People that were already leading in specific areas.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: People that were I guess in quotes "known" at the church.
Linsey: Oh, so a lot of PK's and staff kids were in there as well.
Isabel: And then some of us normal people were sprinkled in as well. We were.
Linsey: So as a normal person who was sprinkled in. Did it make you feel like special to be a part of this? Were a lot of the pastors' kids and staff kids were there to be friends with them?
Isabel: I mean it felt nice and I definitely made friends through it, but I don't necessarily say I wouldn't necessarily say that I became friends with those people. Like we were all I was in a group with some people. There were I guess four or five different groups of us that would all lead in different areas specifically on weekends and Wednesdays. Obviously we all became close, I guess you could say, during the summer. But once it was done it wasn't like all of us were best buddies after the fact.
Linsey: Right. Now we're not going to get into your sister story during this episode, but your sister is two years older than you. So there was a grade between the two of you in school. So when you were a sophomore she was a senior.
Isabel: Mmhmm.
Linsey: And I think that it's relevant to kind of the story going forward and maybe from this part that you and your sister were very close, are very close. And you had a large, I'm going to use the word large, a large-ish size friend group that you guys were apart from.
Isabel: Well, at the time we did.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: Yeah. At the time there was quite a few of us.
Linsey: Right. And you guys…talk a little bit about your friend group. Now most of those kids, I think is interesting is they were a year older than you and a year younger than your sister.
Isabel: Yeah. And I fell in that class right between the two of you.
Linsey: So can you talk a little bit about, kind of your that friend group a bit?
Isabel: Oh, it was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun.
Linsey: A lot,
Isabel: I mean the whole group was full of people that would volunteer constantly at church. But there were only a few in the group that were like related to anyone specifically working at the church. And we would hang out constantly around this time is whenever a lot of the high school small groups started. So, me and Grace would actually lead one of the small groups with some of the people in this friend group that we were a part of. And then the people that we would lead with became kind of a part of it as well. I mean we just did high schooler things.
Linsey: Yeah.
Isabel: You know playing hide and seek in Walmart and going to Brahms.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: You know, like hang out at our house. Our house was like the hotspot staying out with that group.
Linsey: I Remember kind of surrendering your living room and kitchen area to you guys just several nights a week.
Isabel: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was fun. It was a fun group.
Linsey: Yeah. So okay. So keep going with your story. What happens next?
Isabel: Yeah. So I did the internship and then that's whenever my junior year started.
Linsey: So, Grace was an outgoing senior at the time.
Isabel: So she had technically already graduated at that point as I was going into my junior year. And then that's whenever I was still really involved in the areas that I was leading in. So fifth and sixth grade room leading with middle schoolers in the youth room that we would have on weekends. And then still doing Wednesday nights for youth as well. But then that's my junior year was whenever I started leading at that small group. They were high school based. So because Grace and I were homeschooled we kind of got to pick whichever one we wanted to be a part of and the majority of our friends went to one.
Linsey: When you say they were high school based to just give us a little more information about what you mean by that.
Isabel: There were, I guess four different small groups that had started at this point because there were four high schools in our school district over here. So there was a group for each school and it would be primarily for the people that went to that school for people to easily get connected to something and then try and eventually connect to the church as well. But they weren't technically the church's small groups. They were small groups started by people that just so happen to all attend that church. It was like an agreed thing that everyone would do, but they weren't necessarily the church small groups.
Linsey: Okay. So they were all student led.
Isabel: There weren't technically any in quote adults there. That way people could feel more comfortable talking to their peers rather than having to talk to an adult and things like that. So our group specifically would meet on Thursdays. There was one group that would meet on Mondays. One that would be I guess Tuesdays and then the other one would be I guess on Fridays or Sundays or something like that. I don't really know the other one. But we would all have these groups and then we would all go and attend the other groups to support each other. It was kind of just this big thing that we all started. So me and my sister decided to lead at the same school small group which ended up becoming the biggest one out of the four. And it also lasted the longest out of the four. So that was a lot of fun leading that group on Thursdays. I think the most that we had one night was probably about 80 people in a house. Which we got praised from the church for doing that even though we weren't necessarily a church small group.
Linsey: They praised you because -
Isabel: Because we got people.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: Because we had the biggest attendance even though that wasn't technically what it was about. But we would go to the schools and we would hand out little flyers talking about going to the small group and inviting people to the small group. But then also inviting people to Wednesday youth nights trying to get as many people there. Things like that handing out food, handing out t-shirts, whatever it meant. Like our small group had merch at one point. We made t-shirts, you know. So it ended up being a really big thing. And that was a lot of fun. And then at the time of doing all that is whenever I started leading at the retreats as well because I was old enough at that point. So I led the fall one for seventh grade, spring one for seventh grade, and then going to their middle school camp that they did for summers as well.
Linsey: And that was your junior year.
Isabel: Yeah. Junior year was the most involved that I was in anything that had to do with the church. Because my sophomore year I decided to take a step back and just enjoy my sophomore year.
Linsey: You mean your senior year?
Isabel: I'm senior, sorry. Because my senior year I decided to take a step back and just enjoy my senior year kind of as a student.
Linsey: So come back with me real quick to your junior year. That is your sister's first year out of high school.
Isabel: That's also the year that COVID happened my junior year.
Linsey: Right. So you're a junior, you finish your junior year in the spring of 2020.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: Okay. So, I think it's important to the story to note that I had for both you and your sister a required gap year.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: Between high school and whatever would happen next. Because I thought you needed to experience a little bit of life before you just went straight into college. We don't need to get into why I thought that. But it was because I was working with college students who had a really hard time thinking for themselves. And I realized it was because they were going from the school environment where they were learning how to look for the right answer into the college environment where they were learning how to look for the right answer, and I wanted you guys to have a little bit of a time to like see kind of what was life like if you weren't in school. So they have this gap year. So your sister has just come off of her gap year. And during that time the church launches this extension campus of a Christian university.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: So there is an accredited Christian university and they have a couple of campuses at a couple of churches. And our church is the second campus or our old church is the second church to get one of these campuses. So your sister starting in the fall of 2020 enrolls in the school. Okay. So you at that point did you have any plans to go to college?
Isabel: No.
Linsey: No. That was never something that you wanted to go and do. So your sister starts her first year of college as you are going and starting your senior year of high school.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: Yes. Okay. I just I think that that's important to know as you move forward in your story so that the timeline is kind of aware that this college at our church has just started.
Isabel: Yeah. I also forgot to mention something.
Linsey: Hmm?
Isabel: Whenever I wanted to like lead one of the youth like retreats that they would do, we technically have to ask and sign up to be a leader. And so I remembered that I had asked this same youth pastor that denied me the year before my sophomore year asked him if I could lead knowing that I was old enough at this point. And he had told me that they didn't need any more leaders that they had enough girl leaders.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: Yeah. They had enough to then my sister receiving a text on her phone asking if she could lead at this group at this retreat.
Linsey: So I swear I cannot make this up. Okay. So you are, you ask to lead, you want to lead.
Isabel: Yes. I'm old enough.
Linsey: Your sister does not want to lead.
Isabel: No.
Linsey: She does photography so she's happy to do pictures.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: She wants to do photos.
Isabel: Yeah. She doesn't want to lead a group.
Linsey: You say can I lead? They say we have enough girl leaders.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: For girl groups. If my memory is correct, it's like the very next day.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: In fact, I wanna say, like we were literally sitting in church and your sister shows me this text on her phone.
Isabel: I think so.
Linsey: And it says "hey Grace, we're looking for more girl group leaders, are you available to lead?"
Isabel: Mmhmm.
Linsey: And of course she knew you had asked to lead and what you had been told. Okay, so this I think is really important. The pastoral leadership in youth, there were two youth pastors. One over the high school, one over the middle school. We're going to say Pastor J was over the high school at that point. Pastor R is over the middle school at that point. Okay. So as a high school student, your pastor is Pastor J?
Isabel: Yes. Youth Guy J.
Linsey: I know. We, um, Isabel and some of the rest of us, but Isabel specifically is really struggling with referring to this man as a pastor, because when we look at the function of pastors, we see that one of their main roles is to kind of help shepherd and to pastor the people around them and that is not exactly what youth pastor- Youth Guy J.
Isabel: Youth Guy J.
Linsey: Did for you?
Isabel: Youth Guy J.
Linsey: Got it. Okay. So you want to lead? They say, no. No, we don't need any more leaders. They ask your sister. Your sister shows me. I get, I get pretty irked by that.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: And because we are not a secret keeping family, you know that this has happened. So to recap that, you had a situation where you had asked to lead. You were told they didn't need any more and then they texted your sister.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: And that was about when?
Isabel: My junior year.
Linsey: Okay. Your junior year. And then did something happen that summer after your junior year with camp?
Isabel: Because that's whenever I led a Haslet group.
Linsey: After everything happened with [redacted] college and everything else? You led a group? That is wild. Okay. Okay. So you asked to lead. They say we don't have any more room. And then they turn around and ask your sister.
Isabel: The next day, yes.
Linsey: The next day. So this is where the timeline kind of falls apart inside my brain. Because what I do remember is that there must have been something else that was coming up at some point where you asked again to lead, and you were again told no. Because in January of 2021, I reach out to...Youth Guy.
Isabel: Youth Guy J.
Linsey: Pastor J. Youth Guy J. I reach out to him and set up a phone call. And I say to him on this phone call that, Hey, I just wanted to reach out about Isabel, because I'm aware that Isabel is asked to lead at several different things and she just keeps getting told no. And I recap for him the story of when it was supposed to be only upperclassmen and then the sophomores led. I shared the example of when you asked to lead and they told you they didn't need you. And then the next day, I texted your sister. And a couple of other instances that I have forgotten about some of those details of those things four years later. But I asked him at the time, is there anything that's going on with Isabel or any concerns that you have about Isabel? That you... that I need to know about. Because Isabel is a senior in high school. Her time at home with us is coming to an end. My ability to influence and direct and teach her is coming to an end. You were 17 years old at the time. I think it's very important. So you're still a minor child. You're still under his leadership because he is the high school pastor at this church. And so I ask him all these questions because I'm thinking, listen, I want to help Isabel as much as I can if there's an issue that she needs to grow in or concern that they have, then I want to know as your mom to be able to help you. And his response back to me was just, you know, oh my gosh, Linsey, absolutely not…We love her. We love Isabel. Isabel is amazing. We appreciate her so much. In fact, I think I remember him saying, if I just wish I had even more Isabel's because she is so involved and she always has a smile on her face. And it's so great to have her around. She's just great. We love her so much.
Isabel: He really said that?
Linsey: Yeah.
Isabel: You never told me that.
Linsey: You're hearing about it now. And then he goes on to say, you know, we love your family. We're just so grateful for you guys. So I said, well, thank you. And also, we're not perfect people. And there are things that we are going to do or say or get wrong along the way. But if there is ever anything that we have done, then please come directly to us. If it is Tom, Linsey, Grace, Isabel, doesn't matter who, we just come directly to us. Because we recognize that we're all in different stages of growing and learning and that we're not perfect. And we can't, we can't make anything better or improve anything if we don't know about it. So, just come directly to us. Oh, my gosh, of course. We love you guys. You know, we'll definitely do that. 100%. Absolutely. I said, OK. Well, thank you very much. And we hang up the phone. So that was in January of 2021 when I had that phone conversation with him.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: You make the decision shortly thereafter to apply to the college. Yeah, like two or three months after. Yeah.
Isabel: I think like right after I turned 18, I applied.
Linsey: So March.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: OK. So you apply and to apply to the college, you have to have a couple of references.
Isabel: Mmhmm.
Linsey: OK. So, one of them was a pastor reference.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: All right. Talk about that.
Isabel: Did I put Youth Guy J down?
Linsey: Yeah. Did you put Youth Guy J down?
Isabel: I think I put Youth Guy J down.
Linsey: OK. And that would make sense. Right? Because he was your youth pastor at the time, right? As your high school pastor.
Isabel: And I never really had a secure small group leader or anything like that.
Linsey: Right. I remember at that time kind of cringing a little bit on the inside that you chose him. And I think I might have even asked you, do you think that that's really the best person? At which point you said, well, it has to be a pastor. And I don't know if the person that you were actually volunteering under back in the fifth and sixth grade area was a pastor yet.
Isabel: He wasn't yet.
Linsey: Yeah.
Isabel: I couldn't, I couldn't have used them.
Linsey: Right. So I think that this was kind of the one that you felt like had the most awareness of you.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: And that would make the most sense for him to do your reference. OK. So you choose him.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: And you send in your application. Exactly. And then what?
Isabel: And then I got something in the mail.
Linsey: No. No, what happened next?
Isabel: Oh, I had told him that I had used him as a reference for the pastor part. I don't remember what he said.
Linsey: I think he was like, great, sounds good. You know, like just what a normal pastor should do. OK. So you submit your application.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: You get called in for an interview.
Isabel: Mmhmm.
Linsey: OK. The person at that time too, he was not yet a pastor. The person who was over the college. So we'll just call him the college director.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: OK. And then he had an admin assistant. So the college admin and the college director. You interview with who?
Isabel: Both of them.
Linsey: Both of them.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: OK. And how did you feel like the interview goes?
Isabel: Oh, I thought I went awful, because I get nervous during interviews. So I start freaking myself out. So they asked me a bunch of serious questions about like, what I want to be. You know, what I want to do with my career. Why I want to go to college. And if you know me, I never wanted to go to college. Never something I wanted to do.
Isabel: I didn't have a career in mind. I never grew up saying like, I want to be an actor or a policeman or an astronaut. I had very realistic things in my head. I don't know what I wanted to do.
Linsey: And the college at the church has one--
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: It was just one ministry degree. Yeah. Ministry and leadership.
Isabel: And the reason why I applied is because that could be anything. I could use that for literally anything at all. And so I thought that that would be a good way for me to do college, but not necessarily for something super specific that I knew that I didn't want to do in the long run. And so they asked me very normal questions. At one point, they asked me if I was a burrito, what ingredient would I be in the burrito? I don't know why, but they did. I don't remember what I said. But then they were like, I mean,
Linsey: How long was that interview?
Isabel: like 30 minutes an hour?
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: Something like that. And then they were like, okay, we're all good, whatever. So I went home and I waited. And the whole time people were like, how could you not get accepted? Of course, they're going to accept you because I was talking to people about how nervous I was about this. Because I'd never applied for college or anything big like this. And so many people, even one of the pastor's kids was like, he literally was like, how could they not accept you? You are so involved in this church. You've been going to this church for so many years. How could they not accept you?
Linsey: Yeah, you were six when we started attending this church.
Isabel: Right. So at this point it had been 12 years, 11 to 12 years?
Linsey: Yeah. And neither of the two pastors over the high school had been at the church longer than you.
Isabel: No, no. Youth Guy J came whenever he came and visited when I was in seventh grade. And then I think he became an actual pastor at the church whenever I was in eighth or ninth grade. And the middle school guy didn't even show up. He started doing his residency whenever I was in a sophomore in high school. And then all of a sudden he became a pastor at the church. So neither of these people really even knew me. But so many people were like, you're going to get accepted. How could they not accept you? Meanwhile, I'm like, well, you never know what could happen. You know, like I may get accepted. I may not get accepted. And whatever happens, it's going to be okay. And I'm going to survive. I'm not going to die. You know, and so then we just waited and then I got something in the mail around May-ish.
Linsey: What is the something?
Isabel: A rejection letter. [laughs] Pretty much stating we're so sorry. Like you were rejected or however it said.
Linsey: I don't know.
Isabel: I looked at it for like a second and then I was like, yeah, I'm done. I don't want to look at it anymore. I don't really care. It didn't really matter that much to me. So, yeah.
Linsey: OK. So, I see the letter also that day. An important piece to this context is again, at that point in time, I'm teaching at a college. I'm an adjunct instructor at a university. I'm working with college students in the clinical program that I coordinated at the children's hospital locally. So I suggest you to go get some feedback. Just set up a meeting, get some feedback on why you weren't accepted. And the reason I suggested that is because, I always felt like that was really important for the students who applied to our program at the hospital and were not accepted because I knew that they would apply again or apply to something else on the road, and this would be a good learning experience for them. You did not want to do that.
Isabel: Nope.
Linsey: And I want to come back to that in just a minute, that like emotion that you had at that, and why you were so adamant to not go to this meeting. When I thought it was so important. So I make the decision, set up a meeting, and I go and ask them some questions about their process.
Isabel: And you met with the same two people that had my interview.
Linsey: Yes, the college administrator and the college director.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: And I meet with both of them. She's not really the college administrator. She's like the admin assistant for that.
Isabel: She kind of helps out. Yeah.
Linsey: Yeah. And the director of the college and I meet with them and I'm just like, hey, can you tell me a little bit about your process, of how students are selected and, you know, a little bit about, I had some specific questions about your--Isabel’s specific application, interview, any opportunities that they, or feedback that they had for you in order to help you improve. It's very basic this meeting at this point. They do talk about your interview and that you seemed a little unsure in some of your answers.
Isabel: I was so..
Linsey: But again, nothing that was, you know, a concern, right, just some kind of developmental feedback to help you as you grow and mature. Totally normal. Well then I ask, that's about the point that I ask about the process of how students are selected. And it comes out in this meeting, what is told to me in this meeting is that students apply, students are interviewed by the college director and the admin assistant. After that, they take all of the student applications and interviews, they go and have a meeting with the pastoral team. They were very vague. I didn't ask specifically who's in this meeting, but they were vague and just said pastoral team. They were meeting with leadership where they look at applications and interviews and make a decision about who's going to be accepted. I ask about the references, are the references considered? Yes, at this point in time the references are considered. I don't think I ask them yet. Is there like a rubric that you go off of in terms of being able to score applications or score interview answers? And the reason I don't ask that yet is because it's clear based off what he's saying that there's not such a thing. He says that they kind of go person by person looking or applicant by applicant looking at that and making a decision. And that there was a pastor in that meeting that expressed concerns about you. And the concerns were that Isabel is a gossip and that she's entitled.
Isabel: Yep, that's me.
Linsey: Now, I would argue, show me a high school student that isn't entitled in today's day and age. But I think to myself, like, what about all those kids that as sophomores got to do things that other sophomores didn't get to do, when you're talking about entitlement? What about all of that? So it's told to me that it's because you're a gossip and entitled. And I start to lose my mind. Not outside of my body. It's all happening inside my head, so you really kind of can't tell. Except at one point, I get tears in my eyes and the administrative assistant goes to get me some tissues. And I said, no, no, I do not need those. I said, these are angry tears, not sad emotional tears. I said they are angry tears because this was in June, this meeting was happening in June of 2021. So it was six months from the time that I had that phone call with Youth Guy J, where I said, hey, is there anything with Isabel that concerned you? No, no, no. We love Isabel. Isabel is amazing. I wish I had more Isabel's. Isabel is great. Okay, if you have a concern, please come to us directly. Go directly to Isabel. I'm going to ask you right now. Did he ever come to you with a concern?
Isabel: Absolutely not.
Linsey: Okay. So now though, he's willing to get in this executive meeting. Executive, that might be loose. He's willing to get in this meeting with pastors and say, oh, I have a concern about her. She's a gossip and she's entitled. He never came to you with that information. Nope. He never came to me with that information. He never went to your dad with that information. So even after assuring me that he would, but he was willing to get in a meeting and affect your college admission, your educational future for, the words that he said, he was willing to affect those two things.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: That is a huge problem. I was so frustrated. That's the word I'm going to use--I know--when I left that meeting. So I told the college director that I'd had this phone call with Youth Guy J back in February, oh, I'm sorry January. He had no idea that that had happened. So I make the decision. I say to him, well, we're going to have another meeting because I felt like I couldn't just let this go. Either he lied to me in January when he told me, Isabel's wonderful, I have no concerns, or he lied to them in that meeting when he said, is it all gossip and entitled? And let's just say that neither time was a lie. Let's say that in January he thought you were wonderful, but by June, he decided or realized you were a gossip and entitled. There was still this step in the middle of him coming to you as a pastor who's overseeing the high school students, it's not like he doesn't know who you are. And yet he makes no attempt to come directly to you and say, hey, I have some concerns. Right? About you at all. So I have this meeting. I come home. I tell all of you. You, your dad, your sister. Because again, we're not a family that keeps secrets from each other. Everybody was very involved at this church and I felt like everyone needed to know that this was happening.
Isabel: I also remembered that the day that I got the letter, rejecting me or whatever, and you were like, well, we should talk to them. I just remember being like, no, I don't really want to. And like kind of forgetting about the whole thing. Because I ended up just going over to the small group that I led at because it was a Thursday night whenever I got that letter and we were having our last small group of the school year, you know, the final summer bash thing and I had to go there and I acted like everything was normal the whole entire time.
Linsey: Wow.
Isabel: And people that asked me if I'd gotten my letter and I told them, yeah, I didn't make it and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, no, it's fine.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: I don't really care.
Linsey: Well, you cared a little bit.
Isabel: I did like a small bit, but it wasn't like, I mean earlier, I said it wasn't like it was life or death if I made it.
Linsey: Right. So after this meeting that I have with college director and the college administrative assistant, I set up a meeting with Youth Guy J, the other Youth Guy R and R's wife, K, yeah, Mrs. R because they were all leaders in the youth.
Isabel: And dad was there.
Linsey: And your dad came to. So we have this meeting where I, because at this point, I'm really trying to think, okay, Matthew 18 says I'm to go directly to the person. The interesting thing here is that while you were 18 years old, he was your leader. Youth Guy J was your pastor. Yeah. He was your spiritual authority.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: As far as the church is concerned. And so I really felt like it was important to be your voice because you were not in a place where you were going to go and have these meetings.
Isabel: No.
Linsey: But I remember us talking and you wanted the meetings to happen. You just did not want to participate--
Isabel: No.
Linsey: --in them. Okay.
Isabel: Because I knew that I would just sit in the room quiet and probably just cry the whole time out of either embarrassment or anger.
Linsey: You told me also that the reason you didn't want to go to that first meeting. This was after the fact the reason you didn't want to go to the first meeting with the college people was because you didn't want to sit in a room and have them talk about how you're not good enough.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: I just, I feel like that's such an important point that we have to remember is that you're a child. These are people who the church tells you are your spiritual authority. They position them in leadership over you. So there's already this hierarchical relationship where they're above you. And then they hold so much power over your life.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: And you're young. You're, I mean, you're still young. You're 21 years old.
Isabel: They would, like, he would try and control everything. Even the small group that I was leading that wasn't even an affiliate to the church. He would try and tell us what to do and what we should teach and all those things. And at the time I was the oldest one there. And so I kind of spoke for the whole group and telling him, no, we don't want to do that.
Linsey: Well, remind me though, what kind of discipleship were you receiving from the youth leaders? None. What about other leaders in your small group, other kids, teenagers? What sort of discipleship were they receiving?
Isabel: Really none. The only discipleship that they were really getting was from the small group that I led that I was a leader with with a bunch of other high schoolers.
Linsey: So you guys, we had high schoolers discipling each other.
Isabel: Right. And then a few special ones would get special treatment from Youth Guy J, other Youth Guy R and then Youth Guy R's wife.
Linsey: It's a lot of people, but very specific people would get any sort of attention and love and discipleship from those people. Okay. So dad and I, your dad and I have a meeting with the three people and I ask him to very directly about these things. He admits to saying these things about you in that leadership meeting that he was called, he called you a gossip and he called you entitled. I reminded him of the phone meeting that we had and what he said to me in that call and he remembered it too. I didn't really have to remind him. I'm pretty sure once I called the meeting he, it was probably front of mind for him. He actually apologizes to me in that meeting for saying these things about you or for not coming to you about them. At which point I said to him, it is not me that you owe the apology to, it's Isabel.
Isabel: Didn't you tell me that he openly lied about those things like about saying those things?
Linsey: No, he didn't lie to me about saying those things. I told him he lied either one thing was he either lied in that meeting with them when he said that or he lied to me back in January when he told me that there was no concern at all. Are you remembering that differently?
Isabel: I don't know, I guess. Yeah.
Linsey: Okay. What are you remembering about that?
Isabel: Well, I remember you telling me that he had said those things.
Linsey: Can you be more specific?
Isabel: Which part?
Linsey: He said what things?
Isabel: That in the meeting he had said that I was a gossiper and...
Linsey: Did he say in the meeting to me that he had lied to me in January? That he had those concerns in January and didn't tell me about them? Is that what you're remembering?
Isabel: Maybe.
Linsey: No, that's what I'm talking about. In the conversation that I had with him.
Isabel: Go back.
Linsey: I'm not going back. This is the way that it is.
Isabel: I'm confused.
Linsey: Maybe it's important that we should point out that there was a need for me at one point to type up a summary of all of the things that happened to our family.
Isabel: That's a good thing to bring up.
Linsey: And I typed up a summary of everybody's encounters, which after everyone's had the chance to tell their story, we'll talk a little bit about why that summary of these events that took place towards my family was 12 pages long. Isabel's summary of those events is two and a half pages long of all these things that happened. So no. I'm in this meeting. It's not that he lied to me in January. It's that he said these things about you in this meeting with the leaders.
Isabel: And they weren't true.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: And he admitted to doing that.
Linsey: Well, so that's the that's the next part is that I then, he apologizes to me and I say, it's not me you owe the apology to it's Isabel. And so what happens?
Isabel: He ends up texting me asking if I'm going to be at church that weekend if we could meet up and talk. And I said sure. And so he asked me what service I'd be attending and asked if I could come early and sit in the cafe with him and have a little conversation. And so we met up in the cafe and he basically sat there and apologized to me and I kind of asked him about what like what are you apologizing for because if you just say just an I'm sorry, you're not even being specific about it, then it doesn't really mean anything.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: And so he had apologized to me about saying those things and then he was like after the whole exchange, you know, he he apologized. He asked for my forgiveness. I said that I forgave him after the whole exchange. He was like, well, do you have any questions or like comments or anything like that for me. And I was like, well, can you name the specific times that you listed like you say that I'm a gossiper, you say that I'm entitled, can you tell me those specific times so that way I can work on this? And his words to me were I don't keep a notebook of every little thing that every person does wrong. And that's what he said to me. So he couldn't even list anything specific that I did. And yet he was willing to-deny college for me.
Linsey: And then he said, say these things in a meeting that affected your admission, but they clearly weren't that important if you don't remember them.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: Nothing specific he could share with you about it.
Isabel: Nope.
Linsey: Right. And this is an adult man with a wife and children.
Isabel: I think like two kids at this point.
Linsey: Who is saying these things about a teenage girl.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: Wow.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: Who was also one of, I really wish, I'm using air quotes "his" students in high school. Okay. So you have that meeting with him. Is that the end?
Isabel: I mean, after the fact he tried to kind of have more of a relationship with me. After the fact like if he ever saw me on weekends or on Wednesdays or whatever, he'd purposely come up to me giving me a fist bump. And he's like, hey Isabel, how are you doing? He never did that before. So it was almost like he was trying harder to be on my in quotes "good side" after the fact, which it clearly didn't work. And I didn't really care for those extra interactions that he was trying to have with me.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: It wasn't like it was, you know, making anything feel better.
Linsey: Right. So how did this affect you? Like at the time, how, what, what emotionally, how did this affect you?
Isabel: Well, for a while, I just tried to ignore it and I just kept going on with everything. I mean, obviously it hurt my feelings that these are things that pastors were talking about to other pastors behind my back. I mean, I remember whenever you said in the meeting, you had told me that you basically said that you say that Isabel gossiped, yet you don't go and talk to her. You just turn around and gossiped to the other people.
Linsey: Exactly, I said that.
Isabel: So as he was gossiping about me.
Linsey: He's accusing you of being a gossip, but he's doing what he's accusing you of doing.
Isabel: Exactly.
Linsey: And he's a grown man.
Isabel: Yeah. But it's okay for him to do it.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: Because he's a pastor.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: So it's okay. I'm not, I'm just a young girl and I can't just slip up every once in a while and accidentally say something that I probably shouldn't about somebody else.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: You know, but you're a grown adult. So there's a sense of entitlement that he can get away with it.
Linsey: Exactly. He can get away with what you can't get away with.
Isabel: So what I'm hearing is that me and him are like the same person in that way. We're both gossiping. We both entitled.
Linsey: You don't even say that. You are nothing. You are nothing like him.
Isabel: Oh, I know. I know.
Linsey: Okay, but emotionally, how are you, how are you feeling? Is it affecting your friendships? Is it affecting your, like, emotionally when you're walking into church? Is it changing anything?
Isabel: Yes, to that one. It didn't really affect my friendships because no one really stopped being friends with me because of it.
Linsey: Okay.
Isabel: Well, I mean, I also had, at this point, I was done with my senior year. Wasn't in any type of school because I didn't get into the college. So all I was really doing was attending on weekends. I didn't lead at youth anymore. I decided to not do that. And so I basically was just attending the church on weekends. And then I would attend their every once in a while, the young adult event that they would do on Sunday nights. And that was pretty much it. I would stop by the small group that I used to lead every once in a while, but that was pretty much it. And then at this point, I was working at, I guess, my current job that I have now maybe.
Linsey: So, emotionally, walking into church, what was that like for you?
Isabel: Oh, I was like, keep your head down. Don't make eye contact with them. They don't really want to, you know, I don't want to interact with you. And I don't think you want to interact with me. So let's just avoid the whole interaction altogether. And then yet still it was a, “hey, Isabel how you're doing today?” You know? “Good morning.” You know, welcome to church or whatever he would do. And then I would go into church. I would find Grace and sit with her and a few other friends. And then once church was over, I would leave. So. And then I was still somewhat leading in the fifth and sixth grade room. I didn't have any hate against anybody in there. I actually loved that area a lot. It was nice and relaxing. I would do that on Saturday nights. Yeah, I kind of just stopped leading in places. I just slowly kind of disappeared from the volunteering aspect of it all.
Linsey: And how long did you stay at the church?
Isabel: When was that? I stopped going right at the beginning of 2023. So I kept going for almost, for about a year and a half after all that happened. And I just didn't really lead anywhere. At that point, I, by the time I had left, I was only attending on Sundays.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: I wasn't doing anything else.
Linsey: So you were at this church from the time you were six years old until you were almost 20, till you're about 20.
Isabel: I was 19. Because it was right after, um…
Linsey: Yes, you were 19, but your birthday was coming up.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: In March of 2023.
Isabel: Right. But I just remember I stopped attending right before my birthday.
Linsey: Right. So you were six when you started going to this church. You were almost 20 when you left, which is almost 14 years.
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: Yeah. So when you stopped going to this church, um, how many people contacted you wondering where you were?
Isabel: Zero.
Linsey: Well, how can that possibly be?
Isabel: I don't know.
Linsey: You were so involved.
Isabel: I know.
Linsey: They had you doing everything.
Isabel: Exactly.
Linsey: You were in the student internship.
Isabel: I mattered so much.
Linsey: Right. They really needed you.
Isabel: Exactly.
Linsey: Hmm. Interesting.
Isabel: But crickets.
Linsey: Nobody contacted you.
Isabel: No.
Linsey: So what happened with your faith or your relationship with God?
Isabel: I kind of just, I wouldn't necessarily say that I gave up on it. I didn't give up on God. I definitely just stopped going to church altogether. Because I didn't know where to go. Like this church had been my whole life. And all of a sudden I'm having to go somewhere else. Even though my sister still goes to this church because she was still a part of the college.
Linsey: Your dad and I were still going to this church.
Isabel: Right. Like I was the first person that left.
Linsey: Well, I say your dad and I were still going to this church. But the reality is that we were only going online. We weren't going in person anymore at this point.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: So we were attending church in the living room.
Isabel: And I didn't want to watch online. And I didn't want to go somewhere with people like with no one that I knew.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: I don't want to go somewhere alone. So just stop going for a while until I started dating Declan. So probably for about 10 months. I didn't go to church.
Linsey: So what about your relationship with God?
Isabel: That one is kind of weird because even before everything happened with the church, it wasn't like I was necessarily like, I wouldn't read my Bible every day. I wasn't praying. Like none of those things. Like so whenever I stopped going to church, I was just kind of living my life how I normally did just without church.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: And it's not like I stopped believing in God. I just never really prayed or read my Bible even before.
Linsey: So growing up when you're talking about growing up in this church. But you're also growing up in our home. Was it a normal thing for you to see like me praying or with my Bible?
Isabel: Oh yeah.
Linsey: So, so that was a normal thing for you to see in our home.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: And it just hadn't become a habit for you.
Isabel: No.
Linsey: Is that something that you... what kind of... I'm trying to think of the right way to word this question. What kind of priority did the leaders in the youth place on you as a teenage small group leader for your own for discipling you are being for you to be in the word or for you to have your own prayer time? Were you ever taught how to do that?
Isabel: No.
Linsey: Were, was there any accountability for you?
Isabel: Nope. I had many different small group leaders from many different retreats and small groups and things like that. So I had a bunch of different leaders that had led me before. But the one that actually kind of stayed in contact with me ended up just becoming my friend who was never leading me at all. And then at one point she just ignored me.
Linsey: Sounds awesome.
Isabel: Yes.
Linsey: So I just want to make that. I mean again some of these things for me. I'm while I lived through that with you reflecting back on it in this way sort of interesting because what we talked a lot about was being at youth having the numbers leading at camps leading at retreats attending camps attending retreats--
Isabel: Going on mission trips.
Linsey: --going on mission trips. Being a small group leader and yet how many times did someone reach out to disciple you?
Isabel: Zero.
Linsey: How many times did someone say hey teenage leaders we're all going to study this book of the Bible together?
Isabel: I wouldn't say zero. They definitely had us meet up at Youth Guy J's house a few times all the small group leaders. And we would just sit in a room and talk about our groups and then pray over our groups being successful and then they would every once in a while read a few Bible verses from something.
Linsey: Okay well that's not exactly the same thing as encouraging you guys to be studying the Bible.
Isabel: So then so then zero.
Linsey: And teaching you how to read the Bible and how to learn from it.
Isabel: Right. Anytime us leaders would meet at Youth Guy J's house it was all about making sure the small groups are successful.
Linsey: And I want to say to as a mom I'm not, I never did place all of the responsibility for your spiritual development on the church.
Isabel: No.
Linsey: But I did, what I did expect that the church was partnering with me and your dad in that that these are people who went to literal college some of them not all of them went to Bible school but were some of them went to literal college to you know they went to seminary to be able to learn the Bible to learn how to teach the Bible. And that is not something that I studied in school and while I glean a lot from being in God's word I don't necessarily know how to sit down and teach you how to do it or I probably do better now but I didn't when you were going up, but I also didn't, there also wasn't this...What's that maybe it's not that there wasn't a sense of something and but in fact kind of the opposite there was also this sense of, hey mom and dad if you're up here and you're serving and you're participating and your small groups and your kids see you doing those things then they will also value that like and do what you're doing. When they see you doing the thing they're going to want to do the thing. And that made a lot of sense to me and it's true in a lot of cases but my gosh they were really talking about all that we were doing for them and letting you guys see us up there serving, as if that means that we have a close relationship to the Lord and that's not what that means. So where are you at now with your faith?
Isabel: It's kind of I don't know I mean I'm going to church with Declan on weekends. Of course the time that I started going to this church something was happening with that one so, my success, right, on churches hasn't been the best, but it's okay now. But I've been going with him on Sundays. Sometimes if I'm not working I'll go to this small group that he attends on Thursday nights. They haven't really done any young adult stuff recently but also because the building caught on fire they had some setbacks. So, yeah, I've kind of just been going with him on Sundays.
Linsey: And what does it look like for you right now in terms of trusting leadership in a church?
Isabel: Awful. I really can't trust like any of them.
Linsey: That's pretty sad.
Isabel: Because I'm just going to another mega church I went from one mega church to another it just is a smaller campus building so it doesn't feel like it.
Linsey: It's a small campus of a mega church.
Isabel: But it so it doesn't feel like it. And I'm not saying that I hate the people that are on staff there I haven't met a single pastor at this church that I haven't enjoyed talking to, but then again everyone knows my boyfriend. So obviously they're going to be super nice to me.
Linsey: Well, and I think though, that there's a lot of people who would walk through the doors of the church that hurt you so bad and meet the people one person in particular...
Isabel: I know people that have done that recently and they think he's amazing.
Linsey: Yeah. He's great.
Isabel: One of my friends just recently got a tour of this church from Youth Guy J.
Linsey: And then I think it's kind of one of the points of all of this is that we have to start really seeking our own discernment and not just providing a blanket trust in the church because somebody's title or their position. Just being a pastor and having the title of pastor and being a nice guy are not necessarily qualifiers for your character or your trustworthiness. Or your integrity. And that's where I feel like we've got to start seeking more discernment, so that we are a little more sensitive to what the spirit is trying to tell us in terms of how we are connecting with other people and how much power we're giving to them and influence over our lives. And I've told you recently, I don't actually care if you never attend church again.
Isabel: Right.
Linsey: For me, my prayer is that you will, as you continue to grow up, that you will engage with God.
Isabel: I've started listening to worship music again in my car. Just stopped doing that for a while. So, I've slowly been adding songs that they play on weekends to this playlist too because it's full of bunch of their own songs that I don't know.
Linsey: Right.
Isabel: So I'm adding them to my playlist so I can learn them. I started taking notes again on weekends. I stopped doing that for a while. Yeah. So, I'm slowly getting back into it.
Linsey: Right. And while that's my prayer for you is that your relationship with the Lord grows and that you're connected with Him and in the Word and pursuing your prayer time and really growing in your faith. I am also not pushing you in that, because what you experienced was really difficult. And it affected you deeply. And when we talk about the abuse of spiritual authority, this is what we're talking about. And the long term effect that that can have on a person because we're having, we're recording this in, well, the very last day of, well, almost the last day of January, 2025. And so it's been nearly four years since all of this happened.
Isabel: Yeah.
Linsey: And the...
Isabel: It's been almost exactly two since I stopped going.
Linsey: Yeah. And the devastation that occurred in your own life on the other side of this experience that you had is something that you're having to recover from. And I just am... I'm... I'm... I'm a Christian who thinks that other Christians shouldn't have to recover from a church experience. Call me crazy. But I just don't...
Isabel: You're crazy!
Linsey: I just don't think that that's something that should have to happen. So, are there any final thoughts you want to leave us with?
Isabel: Hmm. I don't think so.
Linsey: Well, thanks for being on the podcast today, Isabel.
Isabel: Thanks for having me, Mom. Thanks for sharing your story of the time that you stood before a giant. Because while that conversation that you had with Youth Guy J and the cafe may have seemed small to other people who are hearing it, it's a really big deal for a teenager to come before her youth pastor and say, "Why did you say that about me?"
Isabel: Yep.
Linsey: And you did that on your own. I wasn't with you.
Isabel: Nope.
Linsey: I wasn't even in the building.
Isabel: It was terrifying.
Linsey: It was just you. And I just don't want to...to gloss over the significance of that. That you stood before your own giant. That the Lord saw what happened. He's not happy with it. And I'm really proud of you as you figure out what your own faith looks like as you get older. So, thanks for being here.
Isabel: Thanks.
Linsey: So, thanks for taking a listen to Isabel's story today. We appreciate you guys being with us. And remember, this is your call to courage.
Isabel: Woo!